Let's Talk Ice Axes

[footslogger]

Don't own an ice axe and don't see one having a lot of use in my future. So ...for the PCT (assuming I decide to carry one) my choices are to borrow, buy used or buy new (and inexpensive).

Haven't explored the borrowing or used channels yet but saw this model on the internet and wanted to get some opinions from hikers who have used ice axes before, expecially on the PCT.

http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47804373&parent_category_rn=4500691&vcat=REI_SEARCH

Oh yeah ...and a second question is "length". Since this essentially becomes your second (or maybe one and only) walking stick on ice fields should it be a certain lengthy. In other words, should it be long enough such that you grip the head and the point touches the ground ? For me that would be about 68cm (26")

Thanks in advance ...

[Ender]

Check out some of the axe's here...

http://www.backcountrygear.com/climbing/Ice_axes.cfm

There's some ultralite axes, meant for light use, that are appropriate for the PCT depending on snowfall that year. I used the Grivel Nepal Light, and was pleased with it, but I never actually had to use it, which pleased me even more. The Grivel Pamir on that site looks like a great deal on sale for $64.

[footslogger]

Check out some of the axe's here...

http://www.backcountrygear.com/climbing/Ice_axes.cfm

There's some ultralite axes, meant for light use, that are appropriate for the PCT depending on snowfall that year. I used the Grivel Nepal Light, and was pleased with it, but I never actually had to use it, which pleased me even more. The Grivel Pamir on that site looks like a great deal on sale for $64.

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Looked at that one. It is available in the 60 cm length only. Is that long enough ? I was under the impression (maybe incorrecly) that the axe should be long enough to almost touch the ground with the head grasped in your hand.

[Ender]

I can't remember the "rules" for sizing an ice axe, but I think it was something to the effect that it should reach the top of your ankle when you're holding it in your hand. To be honest though, for the amount that you'll use the thing, I really can't imagine it mattering all that much.

[footslogger]

of your ankle when you're holding it in your hand. To be honest though, for the amount that you'll use the thing, I really can't imagine it mattering all that much.

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You're probably correct there. Best argument for carrying the lightest weight axe that is of adequate size.

[girlscout]

i no expert on this, not by a long shot, having only used my ice axe for a photo-op on forester pass, then sending it home from independence with no regrets, but don't forget that when you're using it on a snow slope, you're planting it uphill from you, which means that it shouldn't have to be quite as long as it seems like you'd need it to be if you were trying to plant it on a flat snow field.

a good person to ask about this stuff is ned tibbets, who can be found on the pct-l, or possibly in the pct 2007 yahoo group. see links on the left side of the main page here.

[footslogger]

[quote=girlscout;289] ...but don't forget that when you're using it on a snow slope, you're planting it uphill from you, which means that it shouldn't have to be quite as long as it seems like you'd need it to be if you were trying to plant it on a flat snow field.

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True !! I hadn't thought of that. So then a 60cm length axe should probably be plenty.

Hmmm ...have to think about that.

Thanks for the lead on that contact person.

[too_obtuse]

I'm from New Hampshire and feel comfortable in the snow. My solution to the ice ax thing was not to bring one on the PCT. Rather, in those rare times (like on Forester Pass) where it seemed prudent to have one I collapsed my trekking pole and removed the basket. It effectively became an ice ax. The self arrest from the walking position is with the tip at the bottom and not with the ax head portion.
As an additional note - I saw plenty of people that had not a clue how to use an ice ax but had one anyway because they thought it was a necessary piece of equipment. Had they actually needed to use it, they wouldn't have been able to utilize it effectively. In short, if you are going to carry one, learn how to use it, practice self arresting until it becomes fluid and easy. Learn to do it with a pack on as well.

[chai guy]

I didn't bring one.

I also can't tell you the number of times I saw people:

A. Using their ice axe as a cane for balance (not very safe imho, it seems that if they did fall, they could have easily impaled themselves on it).

B. Using their trekking poles for balance. (ice axe strapped to their pack).

[footslogger]

So what I'm hearing is that an ice axe might, and I stress MIGHT, be overkill on the PCT ?? If you had some form of crampons and trekking poles would you be pretty much covered ??

[chai guy]

I think it's up to the individual to make their own decision. I've heard people say that it saved their life. Personally, there was never a time when I felt like I needed one, or wished that I had taken one with me.

Like Too Obtuse said, if you don't know how to use one (I mean really know how to use one) then it might end up doing you more harm than good.

As for Crampons, I'm going to say NO you don't need them. I never really saw anyone using them (though I did see them lashed to packs).

Personally, if I was going to do it again, I'd take these:
http://www.kahtoola.com/flight-boot.html

[George]

Just my 2 cents worth - I took an axe and crampons - didn't really use the crampons so could have left the crampons behind, but I found the axe useful. Besides being a tool for self arrest, I used it at one stage to cut steps across a steep hard snow face.
My axe was 670mm long and I found it ok - as has been pointed out, most of the time you have it in your hand you are either heading uphill or downhill, so the ground surface is a lot closer to you.
Bottom line, if you strike a situation where you need one then you'll be glad you took it. I'd still take it again for certain sections, but then I don't use poles, so that cuts down on what I'm hauling!
(it also came in handy for digging latrine holes ;) )
Cheers,
George

[footslogger]

Don't exactly have a lot of direct feedback to go on so far here but it seems like the limited consensus is that ice axes (and crampons for that matter) are found strapped on packs more than they are being used.

Is that an accurate statement ??? I already own crampons but don't have an ice axe. Trying to decide whether or not it makes sense to buy one.

Hoping to get more feedback from members here at APCT (Adventure on the PCT)

[chai guy]

Again, I think everyone has to make the decision to take one or not to on their own, but in my personal opinion, I'd think it's more prudent to use trekking poles and avoid falling in the first place.

I also have to say that more often than not, ice axes were not being used properly, or were strapped to packs.

[girlscout]

this is one of those topics that gets debated endlessly on the pct-l this time of year, and pretty much the only conclusion that comes out of it is that if you already know how to use one or are willing to learn/practice, and you don't mind the weight, then go ahead and take one. otherwise, you're better off not taking one and using your poles for balance instead. you should also probably not be one of the first thru the sierra, so you'll have some previously kicked steps to work with.

either way, i don't suggest taking *nothing* to aid your stability unless you're already very experienced and confident on snow slopes... in which case my advice to you would be meaningless anyway! :)

[footslogger]

Well ...I was planning to use trekking poles anyway so I already have that base covered. In terms of the ice/snow I was giving some thought to carrying some form of crampon. Have heard from some hikers that walking across the ice on a slope can get a little dicey and that having some form of spikes for traction and secure footing is helpful.

Any comments ??

[girlscout]

i don't think i saw a single person using crampons last year. saw lots of folks carrying them, though, including myself (up until independence, where they got sent home with my ice axe).

the main thing is that you don't want to go over any passes or other snow slopes early in the morning or late in the evening. time it out so you're there at, say, in the 10am to 6pm time frame. it may sound a little complicated, but it really isn't. i ended up hitting all the slopes in this time frame without really making much of an effort at all. it's sort of the natural flow of things, assuming you're going to camp below treeline most (if not all) of the time.

i should point out that i was one of those who were stressing big time about the snow and the axe/crampons issue... i was really terrified. in fact, the heavy snow in 05 was a big factor in causing me to quit the trail (before i even got to the snow) and hope for better conditions in 06. but when the snow more or less shaped up similar to 05, i just told myself i was gonna deal with it and just plow through. and i did. and it was no big deal. granted, i waited until june 24 to leave kennedy meadows, to make sure i was at the tail end of the herd, and would have less snow and more footsteps, but there was still lots of snow to deal with and i was fine. never used my axe or crampons.

[footslogger]

[quote=girlscout;374]
i should point out that i was one of those who were stressing big time about the snow and the axe/crampons issue... i was really terrified. in fact, the heavy snow in 05 was a big factor in causing me to quit the trail (before i even got to the snow) and hope for better conditions in 06.

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Thanks for that. Don't see myself as one who stresses about much ...but that said, I like to put the time into up-front planning and then when I'm "out there" I just take it as it comes. Point being, if there is a decent chance that crampons (or an ice axe for that matter) might be the make/brake difference in terms of a relatively safe/successful hike I'm likely to suck up the extra weight and strap em onto my pack. On the other hand, I'm NOT the type of person who carries stuff just cuz everyone else did.

So far I've been impressed with both the information and candor here on this thread. No doubt this is a charged issue and full of varying opinions. Plus a lot has to do with the snowpack on any given year.

Just trying to pull in the best intell I can get prior to making any final decisions.

[girlscout]

well, it certainly doesn't hurt much to do what i did- take the axe/crampons (or anything else) until you've seen the conditions on the ground for yourself, and if you don't need them, send em home. i basically told myself that if i didn't need that stuff on forester (the first pass, and the highest), then i probably wouldn't need it at all. forester is actually NOT the hardest pass in terms of potential snow problems- and i knew that going in. so when i sent my stuff home from independence, i was still nervous, but after glen pass (the next one) i was confident that i'd made the right decision. glen has probably the steepest/scariest descent. i just took it nice and slow, and made sure i wasn't there in the early morning.

the descent off mather, and the descent down to sonora pass are the other two that stick in my mind as being scarier than usual. most of the other snow is more exhausting than scary.

[George]

Hi Footslogger,
GirlScout makes some good points, but just my 2 cents on timing - I always timed my day to get reasonably well up towards a pass and then leave early in the morning for the ascent to it. The reason being, that the snow was still firm then and much easier to walk on. Later in the day, when the sun has done its work, everything softens up and you 'sink' into it with each step - very tiresome and slow going. You'll work out your own preferred rhythm anyhow, but that's my preference.
Re' crampons, like I mentioned, I took them but used them only once (and that was really only because I'd hauled them with me!) I found the axe did come into use and it was a comfort knowing I had it if I started imitating a sled. I also used it to cut steps across a slope on Forester.
Ironically, the only time I really fell, was because I was wearing crampons - I was descending from a pass and was wearing extra gear due to the temps, as I stepped forward a crampon spike caught in the opposite leg of my overtrou and my progress north suddenly took on a more dramatic style! :)
I didn't come to much grief apart from slight bruising to myself and my ego, but it could have been a different story if that had happened in the spot where I had used my axe to cut the steps.
Just another take on crampons - I had a 'full' crampon and had thought later that maybe some small instep crampons would have been better to take. However, I spoke to someone who had actually used them and he reckoned they were next to useless. He had the opinion that if you need crampons then you need a full crampon.
Anyhow, that's my take on it, conditions vary and folk have different styles, but I'm sure you'll be ok - just take something, axe or poles, if they do the biz.
Cheers, George

[footslogger]

Thanks for that George. I actually have heard from some hikers about the potential tripping and injury caused by crampons. I just thought that if I had the trekking poles for balance and the spikes for traction I'd be OK. But maybe I misunderstand the situation.

As for ice axes ...I have NO experience with them and fully acknowledge the wisdom that says ...if you're going to bring them then know HOW to use them.

I can see why this is such a charged issue ...

[George]

As for ice axes ...I have NO experience with them and fully acknowledge the wisdom that says ...if you're going to bring them then know HOW to use them.

I can see why this is such a charged issue ...

Hi Footslogger,
Using an ice axe isn't exactly rocket science, you just have to hold it correctly. Hold the axe with your hand over the head of the axe with the adze part facing forward.
To self arrest, bring the axe up to your chest with the adze part tucked tightly in just below your collar bone and the pick part sticking out at right angle to your chest.
Keep your other hand down low on the axe shaft over the pointed end (so's you don't harpoon yourself in the goolies ). ;)
The idea is to get as much weight over the axe head as possible with your shoulder, so the pick is digging in.
Keep your face to one side away from the axe.
Keep your feet lifted up (in hard snow) so they don't catch and send you cartwheeling. With soft snow, your legs will probably assist you in stopping.
If you fell head first, stick the pick out to your side and this should whip you around into the classic arrest position. Hang on tight!
Hope that helps if you do decide to take an axe. :)
Geo.

[AlohaTink]

From a woman's point of view...simply stated:

What's your foot wear choice going to be?

Thin trail runners and you will have black toes from kicking in the snow (decent and assent ) ?
Most state in their journals that did not bring an ice axe but so happy they were wearing boots. Just a thought:p

[girlscout]

then again... assuming you're not one of the trailblazers, most of your steps will already be kicked for you... i had boots, but don't recall having to re-kick existing steps very often, and when i did, it was just to make them a bit deeper or larger, or to remove a crust of slick icyness. most folks i saw were able to do this fine w/ trail runners...

[footslogger]

From a woman's point of view...simply stated:

What's your foot wear choice going to be?

Thin trail runners and you will have black toes from kicking in the snow (decent and assent ) ?
Most state in their journals that did not bring an ice axe but so happy they were wearing boots. Just a thought:p

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Ouch ...black toes ?? So, using an ice axe will prevent that ?? ...or am I misunderstanding ??

[AlohaTink]

I found this...it is a combo of an ice axe and trekking poles...the same price as most ice axes. Just another suggestion.


http://www.bdel.com/gear/fl_whippet.php

All depends on your trail runners (the soles and tips) also if wearing boots and not having to be the first trail blazer for that time of year.
If you are early say June 2 or so you may be doing the trail blazing.

Granted I have never did that section of Forester Pass or Glen Pass and Pinchot Pass with Mather Pass...but I use to live in the snow in Big Bear Lake, so I have a little experience there:D

If you read George's posts again he mentions how he used his axe to make foot steps etc..
Kicking the points of your toes into the ends of your shoes step after step makes for some sore bruise and black toes.

Like girlscout mention if you are not the first on the trail you would not have to worry about it too much...

but that Black Diamond poles looks pretty darn good to me :rolleyes:

[George]

Hi Folks,
Came across this video that I thought would be of interest to those following this thread. Very good visual information on ice axe use...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM3xLshmNnk

Cheers, George

[footslogger]

Thanks George ...informational video.

For now I have decided to carry the Black Diamond Whippet in the section(s) where an ice axe would be of value/importance. Not sure yet whether I'll just go with the Whippet alone or carry a second "regular" trekking pole.

Jury is still out on the crampons but I do own a pair so will make that decision when the time comes.

Oh yeah ...and I am planning on wearing trail runners at the moment (NB 809's) so it looks like I'll be a member of the "Black Toe" club.

[Taildragger]

I'll throw in my .02 here

My thought is to go ahead and bring an ice ax. I usually follow the motto of being prepared (and I was only a scout for 6 months). If a late snow hits, then it could come in handy to use the ax for self belaying, and if your self belaying, then it would be good (IMHO) to use an ax instead of poles since your chances of needing to self arrest are increasing. Also, as already mentioned, it might be nice to use it and cut steps, not likely though if your at the tail.

For me, using something like the whippet might not be the best idea. I plan on trying to get into mountaineering, so a full ice ax will be needed, and I weigh in at 190 lbs, will probably put on another 20 before I take off in May, then put pack weight on top of all that and you've got a 240lbs hiker, not so sure how well the whippets will hold (looked like they had some smaller adze's).

A note with crampon usage, I'll be leaving mine at home due to lack of experience with them, and the fact that if I do need to self arrest I don't want to risk breaking a leg cause my crampon dug in while sliding down a slope.